does 1.4116 deserve the title of title of ultimate trash steel? Each test is done with 3 or more specimens to get a good average. They are usually chosen for their looks rather than performance. Both steel types don't chip easily, but 14c28n steel is easier to sharpen. 14c28n steel has a high Chromium and Carbon percentage. This list is not exhaustive, so check out some of our rating tables for more information on whatever steel youre interested in. Corrosion is not only cosmetic. AEB-L and 14C28N are the best in the high toughness group. These steels are the good old hard-working steels. Thanks again for everything you're doing, it's a tremendous resource. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. 420HC, 420, and 5160 all offer off-the-charts toughness. They represent the absolute best performers on the market in terms of their specific attributes. Poor availability may effectively increase cost of steel. The D2 steel compares nicely with 14c28n steel in terms of edge retention, as it's quite hard as well. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. 1. G10 But it doesnt have great wear resistance and thus doesnt hold an edge particularly well. European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. They make excellent everyday carry steels, especially for light- and medium-duty tasks. Did you change the estimate based on more testing? Most of the discussion of how the ratings were generated, various caveats and details, etc. Thank you. The definition of a quality knife differs among users because of varied needs, but there are basic properties that every quality knife must have. MagnaCut I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. Steel ratings are not about ranking steels in terms of what is better than another, but understanding the different balances such as toughness vs edge retention. 14c28n | Civivi The biggest change that is seen with powder metallurgy in measured properties is in regards to toughness. i understand the samples were treated in the same way. I just want to thank you for all the work you do for the community and the world at large. If the steel is overheated in austenitizing, very large reductions in toughness are possible. If the knife youre looking at has a 154CM blade, youre fine. For example, below is a video comparing a 1095 ESEE knife at 55-57 Rc and a MagnaCut knife at 62.5 Rc, both with the same edge angle. S45VN SG2 Flashlights run the gamut of price and quality. 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. Sorry, most of my previous comment was borderline word salad. Ease of sharpening refers to how difficult it is to remove material with a sharpening stone. . Maxamets hardness results in incredible edge retention and a nightmarish sharpening and machining experience. Its called memory metal because heat can get it to revert back to a previous shape. grivory You can see that 64 Rc AEB-L has both lower toughness and edge retention than 61 Rc MagnaCut, so I feel that in general you get a better sense of where the steels fit with a single point. However, many kinds of wood are REALLY tough and very hard on blades. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/, Unfortunately it all comes down to marketing on everybody involved: Industry, knifemakers, users. Also I notice 1095 looks like another underperformer as there doesnt look to be any reason to use it over 5160 which I cant imagine is any more expensive than 1095. D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. 9Cr18MoV Steel: Full Details and Review - Bud Nealy Knife Maker Spyderco offers this as the high-end steel for many of its evergreen blades, like the Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 3, Manix 2, and Native 5. D2 is a high carbon, high chromium die steel and is the highest carbon alloy tool and die steel typically used in knife making. For these reasons D2 steel is a good for smaller folding knives, but is not ideal for large fixed blades such as dedicated choppers and large survival knives. At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. 14C28N Steel Review: What To Expect From This Popular Steel? - We Knives And Ive done a lot of experimental work on knife steels where I feel more confident in my own ratings. The biggest factor for cost of knife steel is whether it is produced with conventional ingot technology or powder metallurgy. imo o lot depends on how the blade is sharpened. Despite its wonderful performance, XHP is actually not terribly expensive compared to other high-end, all-around performers. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. Both knives come at an affordable price for high-end knives. So youre right that a D2 blade will cut more CATRA cards than an AEB-L blade *when theyre both sharpened to the same angle* but AEB-L has much better toughness and can therefore handle being sharpened to a more acute angle without chipping, and a more acute angle is more important to continuing cutting ability than wear resistance is. I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. The sharpening makes the knives easy to maintain because they dull faster and require frequent sharpening. Display: 24 per page Sort by: Featured View CIVIVI Voltaic Flipper Knife Stainless Steel Handle With Micarta Inlay (3.48" 14C28N Blade) $88.30 Add to cart MC66 I made most of my leather knives from O1v (O1 with .20V) that I hold at 1475 for 15 mins and quench in 120-130 F AAA oil and Kevin Cashen is where those parameters came from btw. worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). 14C28N is thus ideal for use in corrosive environments and challenging applications. Its hard to imagine a more rust-inducing environment than saltwater and fish guts. A2 is a tool steel renowned for toughness. My test is for comparing different steels, not necessarily for a go/no go test for saltwater applications. . The steel is similar to Sandviks 13C26. Here, read on for an in-depth look at common knife steels as well as the best knife steels around. While higher hardness does lead to improved edge retention the bigger reason to have higher hardness is for resisting edge deformation. 14c28n vs d2 - Which Model For Best - Knifeyellowpages Now 14c28n is IMO the best budget steel out there. Its used for combat knives, bushcrafting knives, and other applications where having a supertough blade trumps the need for edge retention and corrosion resistance. You said wood is not a particularly abrasive material and in absolute terms that is very true. Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. Its very similar chemically to RWL 34 and ATS-34. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). That way you can get into the steel ratings quickly. Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. nevertheles its importand to keep in mind what exactly is going on there (abrasive plastic media, loss of most of cutting ability during the first few strokes etc.). The hardness of the carbides does not matter much unlike with edge retention. Maxamet is one of two current high-hardness kings, with HRc marks in the high 60s approaching 70, a hardness usually only seen in carbide steels. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. There are a few other complicating factors such as carbon in solution and plate martensite, especially in low alloy steels such as described in this article. In the context of a knife this would be chipped edges or broken knives. And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. 14c28n Steel Is Good for Knife? Here's The Best Review For - Milkwood I used to work for a company that did reclaimed old growth lumber (swamp cedar, old growth pine and oak beams, etc) and we went through planer blades twice as fast as the cabinetry shop next door (turns out the neighbors like it when you put all the loud businesses together and far away), which mostly cut fresh cherry, oak, maple, hickory etc. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. But its lightyears ahead of the alternatives, specifically titanium-bladed knives. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? Vancron would work well in a kitchen knife. 14C28N is the highest-selling steel of Sandvik, a Swedish steel company. Some steels are more difficult to manufacture for the steel company or have more expensive alloying elements so the cost is increased. Most of the midrage ifferings have 14c28n, how does it compare to d2 in your experience? One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. Is 14c28n Steel Good For Knives? A Complete Guide - Knife Pulse The edge retention numbers are normalized to the hardness of the closest toughness test. Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. So hard vanadium carbides means you get more edge retention for a given amount of carbide. Though the volume of carbonitrides in the steel is relatively high. looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. And Mn and Si isnt shown at all for the high alloy steels, even though those elements are added to all of them. The high hardness makes it all but impossible to sharpen and machine. ), intended use will give you all the answers. Nitro V is also significantly cheaper than many other steels with this level of performance. But I think it would have much higher toughness than any of the steels on the chart. I wont go into detail about those here. a burr might have developped on some of the steels and not on others, it might have ben reduced or even removed by the process. in relation to hardness). This is an American-made powder steel produced by Crucible and developed specifically for knives with the aid of the knife guru Chris Reeve (maker of the vaunted Sebenza, among other gems). On the spreadsheet, youve grouped AUS-8 and 8Cr13MoV. Also, what kind of steel is used for utility knives? 9cr18MOV or D2? | BladeForums.com Very much appreciate you. Its very hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. I was wondering if the 14c28n sample was also prequenched like the AEB-L toughness samples? Knife Steel Rust Testing 1095, 8Cr13Mov, D2, 420HC, Walmart - YouTube However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. 14C28N is offered on midprice knives and is one of the better steels on a dollar-for-dollar basis. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. Any idea where it would be on the hardness and toughness scales? How Good Is Nitro V Stainless Steel - Knives & Gear Each of these contributes to a knifes overall performance. 14C28N steel holds good hardness. But weve tested this metal in the form of the Sobata 398 for nearly a year and have been continually impressed. But Ive found it lacking in hardness, even when compared to cheaper steels like AUS-8. LC200N is produced with a special technique to add high nitrogen, giving steel excellent corrosion resistance on the top! 8Cr13MoV is comparable to the Japanese AUS-8 but containing slightly higher carbon content. It improves wear resistance and hardenability. You can read more about these factors in my book Knife Engineering. I was guessing 5.5 based on your rating of CPM-154. Even people that are aware of your work still do knife rankings and pass them off as steel rankings. Toughness is a measure of how much resistance a steel has to fracturing. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. Bohler N690Co Stainless Steel: Is N690 a Good Knife Steel? - KnifeGuides While 14C28N and D2 are both pretty to look at, buyers always regard one over the other. I have a few examples below for steels that I have ranges of hardness tested for both toughness and edge retention. Manage Settings Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. D2 steel does not contain enough chromium to make it stainless steel. Using 10 dps sharpening (20 degrees inclusive on the chart) leads to about 5x the edge retention of 25 dps. Most low alloy tool steels and carbon steels also have fine carbide structures without powder metallurgy processing. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Knife Steel Guide - Knife Life - Blade HQ 20? Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. I am particularly interested in researching knife steel, knife properties, and brands. In other words, heat treating a steel to its maximum hardness does not necessarily mean reduced corrosion resistance. Continue with Recommended Cookies. For example, the Si space is blank for several of the carbon steels because they have a relatively wide acceptable range, not because the element isnt added. There you said 7.6 for 420HC. Carbon steels are those that have primarily carbon added to them with some Mn or Si as well. How Is 14C28N Steel for Knives? Thanks to its very high hardness (64-66 HRc compared to the average of 58-62 HRc), ZDP-189 can be ground thinner and sharpened less often. Thanks Larrin, Compare 20 Grades of Knife Steel - ThoughtCo Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. Stainless steels are another subset of high alloy tool steels that have enough chromium in them to have stainless levels of corrosion resistance. These steels offer a great balance of characteristics that work well, from big choppers to thin slicers. Mostly it has been presented piecemeal with all of the studies that we have done on optimizing heat treatments of different steels like CPM-CruWear, AEB-L, 52100, etc. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. im led to believe tha the melting procedure is more important with these steels than the exact composition. 14c28n vs d2 : r/chineseknives - reddit 8am-5pm Saturday. High wear resistance steels are more expensive to buy and to process, especially since many require powder metallurgy. Almost all of the knives in my EDC rotation are Spydercos, in exotic steels. Its an anomaly in the knife world and quite puzzling to use. 14C28N steel is as a result of a more corrosion resistant version of the 13C26 steel. Great for tensile strength and Edge retention. Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. in the correct place for the stainless-toughness-edge-retention graphic? It has a lower hardness and edge retention as compared to the 9Cr knife. Mid-Range Steels 154CM D2 N690 VG-10 CTS BD1N 14C28N A2 1095 O1 H1 Budget Steels 440C CTS-BD1 440A 420 8Cr13MoV AUS-8 The Steels Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. It doesnt hold an edge well, but its so easy to sharpen that you can get it back to razor sharpness in a few minutes. If you purchase this types of knife, without any hassle you can easily re-sharpening. H2 Here, youll learn the different factors that go into each steel, ratings for a wide variety of steel alloys, and youll get some recommendations for types of knives different types of steel work well for. I see tables that compare Toughness,Edge Retention,Corrosion Resistance. No idea. Powder metallurgy is a technology designed to maintain a small carbide size. For more information, please see our But yes, I would assume that the general performance would still be relatively similar between them without evidence to the contrary. For decades, different steels have been made to fit this category. This was not necessarily because of superior toughness but because of the superior strength of the MagnaCut from higher hardness. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. They have many similarities, including their high hardness, strength, and wear resistance. Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. Vancron has a very fine microstructure so it would be tough to beat. In particular, I have found the ESEE/Rowen 1095 to be less likely to chip and better at holding an edge than the KA-BAR version even in knives with the same role, thickness, and blade length. A hunting knife has a singlepurpose: processing meat after akill. All about 14C28N Steel - HDMD Knives Blog third and most important is what happened to the burr. Hes already done a three part series on cryogenic treatment: It is among the best steel that will offer exceptional toughness while still maintaining excellent corrosion resistance. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. I guess that was before I started reading. 14C28N vs. D2. High toughness steels can be produced without powder metallurgy and also have low wear resistance for lower manufacturing costs. 9cr18mov vs 14c28n. Is that accurate? If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife. Edge Retention Test! 14c28n vs VG10 blade steel comparison - YouTube Often used for combat knives. Another very tough and highly wear-resistant steel grade is the D2. This was described in this article on Vanax heat treating. Are you looking for 14c28n steel with other steel? In reality hardly difference. AR-RPM9 I wrote an article about knife steel ratings available online in 2018, where I concluded that none of them were very good. Are you okay with that? To reiterate the clearer part, I wonder if toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases as an edge gets thicker. : knife a with a toughness of 5 and an angle of 20 degrees will perform as well in edge retention as knife b with a toughness of 3 and an angle of 15 degrees. I have a bachelor's degree in Mechanical engineering with a specialization in material science. Most production knives are more than thick enough at the edge to accommodate a regrind to significantly improve performance, and its a lot cheaper than buying a new knife a lot of the time. We use a subsize, unnotched chapy test with 2.5 x 10 x 55 mm dimensions. That provides 14% Chromium and offers excellent corrosion resistance. A2 Knife Steel Air-hardened tool steel. The pictures below show the microstructures of the three classes of stainless steel on the market. Rather than upgrade from D2 to M4 or S30V just drop the angle from 40 degrees to 30 degrees. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. and get better and longer-lasting performance? Poor heat treatment can make a knife too hard, too soft, hard to sharpen, easy to deform, or cause other issues. Everyone has their own opinion on what they deem the best folding EDC knife. Check out theGiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife at $99, for example. Is 14c28n A Good Knife Steel? [Complete Steel Guide] Because of its abrasion-eating hardness, knives with REX 121 come at an exceptionally high price. Theyre excellent for choppers, hard-use folders, and outdoor knives that see impacts and heavy use when used at medium hardness. 14C28N Vs D2 . 14C28N VS S30V S30V steel provides improved corrosion resistance, sharpening ease, and edge retention. YMMV Like S90V, its a high-hardness steel, but its more balanced than S90V. I see very little about cryo outside of journal articles, and I wonder which knifemakers use it. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. It can dull your edge, cause pitting, and damage the structural integrity of your knife. Almost all consumer-grade pocket knives, EDC knives, fixed blade knives, etc will be in the range of a Rockwell Hardness rating of 54 to 65 HRC. Are you familiar with anything similar on the metallurgy/knife steel side of things? https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/ Not every wood is soft pine. 2. Or, is this perhaps a historically useful practice that made sense on softer/less tough steels, but would make less sense on some newer steels that can be used at higher hardness and thus higher edge stability? Wear resistance, be it high or low, is the most significant determining factor in ease of sharpening. The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. The critical difference between these two sheets of steel is their corrosion resistance. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. Ive not seen these used on non-kitchen knives, though, and it seems that if they had real utility they would be used in other knives as well although perhaps on the thinner edges of kitchen knives they are more effective than they would be elsewhere? On the positive side, they are very easy to forge and grind. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, which include chromium carbides. This is a powder steel produced by American steel company Carpenter. GiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife, Muley Freaks Erik Van Woerkom Charged With Felony Possession of Trophy Mule Deer, The Biggest Improvement to My Camp Kitchen Is a Mini Pizza Oven (But Not for Pizza), Propane Traeger, Moosejaw Coolers, Hybrid HOKAs, Adventure Chess, and More Emerging Gear, Avalanche Outside British Columbia Resort Buries 10, Kills 3 Heli-Skiers, Netflix Unveils First Trailer for Tour de France Series. Different heat treats have emerged over the years, but one has risen to the top as the best:Bob Doziers D2. Phone Hours (MST) That mixture has one goal in mind: making a great steel for people worried about rust and corrosion. This particular steel grade allows for the highest attainable hardness without. Its a very hard steel and is exceptionally difficult to sharpen. The very good toughness of MagnaCut meant that it didnt chip despite this relatively high hardness and the difficulty of the test. Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. A more obtuse edge angle is much more resistant to chipping than an acute edge. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! 9Cr is the top end of the series and is quite good as good or better than AUS-8. Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. Does that mean that companies like Tops, Kabar and ESEE would be better off using 420HC instead of 1095 on their fixed blades? Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. Steels without these attributes are much less costly. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. High Speed steels are a subset that have significant additions of Mo and/or W that makes them resist softening when they are used for machining operations. What is 14c28n Steel? is it good for knife? (Complete Steel Guide) The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website.